Welcome to Joy Lab!: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast, where we help you uncover and foster your most joyful self. Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr. Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of soulful and scientifically sound tools to spark your joy, even when it feels dark. When you're ready to experiment with more joy, combine this podcast with the full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
Henry: Hello, I'm Henry Emmons and welcome to Joy Lab
Aimee: And I'm Aimee Prasek. Now today, we're just diving right in. We are talking about how to build the skill of love so that we can see our own light and the light around us, particularly when life feels hard. So I wanted to sort of set the stage with some wisdom from the brilliant writer, James Baldwin. I'll pull a few lines from the book. the last essay of one of [00:01:00] his books. It's called Nothing Personal. Here it is. It's a bit longer, so stay with us here. "One discovers the light in the darkness. That is what darkness is for. But everything in our lives depends on how we bear the light. It is necessary, while in darkness, to know there is a light somewhere. To know that in oneself, waiting to be found, there is light. He continues, for nothing is fixed forever and forever and forever. It is not fixed. The earth is always shifting. The light is always changing. The sea does not cease to grind down rock. Generations do not cease to be born and we are responsible to them because we are the only witnesses they have. The sea rises. The light fails. Lovers cling to each other and children cling to us. The moment we [00:02:00] cease to hold each other. The moment we break faith with one another, the sea engulfs us and the light goes out." So as I read this, I think the most powerful pieces in here about love have to do with these two essential sort of human needs that we must offer ourselves love so that we can see our own light. And then also if we want to keep that light alive, we must hold each other up. We must love each other as well. So Henry, what catches your attention from these passages?
Henry: Wow, that is a very powerful piece.You know, I have a couple of other things I want to comment on, but that last line is just very powerful. The moment we cease to hold each other, the moment we break faith with one another, the sea engulfs us and the light goes out. [00:03:00] That is just a... such a powerful statement for our times.
And I think that's all I'm going to say about that right now. But so the other thing that jumped out at me is the very first line, "one discovers the light in the darkness." I like it because I think it gives a context for the dark times that we all go through at some point in our lives for sure. And I think it reminds us or reminds me that something good can come from that.
Now, I do not believe that we need to suffer in order to grow. I don't buy into that, but I do know that we are all going to suffer from time to time and that growth can come from it. And I believe that growth can come from anything, whether we consider it positive or negative. So, we might as well do our best to make use of [00:04:00] it.
Now, I also like the line right after that, where he says, " one discovers the light in the darkness. And then he adds, that is what darkness is for. Now, that is such a simple little statement. That is what darkness is for. It's almost like you just tacked it on, you know, kind of, but, you know, I think it's really clever because it means to me that that's all that darkness is for.
It's nothing more than that. And I like that because I, I think that sometimes we give too much meaning to the dark stuff. We spend too much energy on it, trying to figure it out. You know, how did it happen? What does it mean? What should I do about it? And we can just get stuck. We can get mired in that search. And Baldwin seems to be [00:05:00] saying it doesn't mean anything. It's just there in order for us to see the light. So, don't dwell on it, don't get stuck in it, just touch it lightly. You do need to touch it, you do need to acknowledge it, but touch it lightly, learn what you can from it, and then move on.
Aimee: Yeah, I love that. What an invitation. Um, maybe a tangent, but based on your insight there, Henry, maybe an episode for another day. Okay, but I am thinking of the supposed Socrates line he shares as he's facing exile or death. He chooses death, right? Which was an unexamined life is a life not worth living, or something to that effect. And I agree in many ways with Socrates there, I think as far as I understand it, but I, I think that idea has been bent toward the side of affliction or dysfunction. as you were saying, or the darkness, the struggles. [00:06:00] This pressure or idea that we have to uncover all of those supposed terrible bits about ourselves or all the bad things that have happened to us or that we've done and take it out, each one out and inspect it on all sides, analyze every bit of it and, I agree,
I'm just not convinced that's the case. I think what you are highlighting, what Baldwin is highlighting too- the darkness is there so we can see the light, just as he said. So we see the darkness, we don't push it down, we don't ignore stuff, but also the invitation to release something without dissecting every bit of it or continuing to replay the tape of the worst moments of our lives in an effort to try to learn something from it. We've all probably been there or even encouraged to do that, right? So there's this invitation, I think, to just see it, as you said, and then see what else it may show a contrast with. To see what shines [00:07:00] in those dark moments. To give attention to that too, or even more so at times, because they are illuminated. And I think it is at odds oftentimes with how we approach mental health. Not here at Joy Lab, I'd like to say, but often in this culture that can be sort of that pervasive message of mental health.do you want to feed this tangent at all, Henry?
Henry: Well, as As you know, I like tangents too, so sure, I'll go there.
So, obviously I have no idea what tangents are. Socrates really meant when he said, uh, unexamined life is not worth living. But I, I do suspect that we have misinterpreted it or misinterpreted that notion kind of as a society. I imagine that Socrates himself was not interested in focusing on what's wrong,
Aimee: Right.
Henry: rather in bringing more curiosity and awareness to our lives, to our inner lives, especially. Which I think is a really [00:08:00] worthy thing to do, but not with the intention to judge ourselves or fix ourselves, but just to understand ourselves better. I also think you are spot on by suggesting that our approach to mental health has kind of gone the wrong way with this.
So many folks get caught up in thinking that there is something wrong with them, so wrong with them that, you know, deep inside they're, they're broken or something is, something crucial is missing.
And therapy often gets approached in this way with the idea that in order to feel better, one first has to uncover what's wrong, root it out and fix themselves. And of course, I, we just don't buy that. Here at Joy Lab, I don't buy that as a clinician. I often see my [00:09:00] work, especially my writing and speaking, as trying to take the mystery out of good mental health.
Because I do think there's this cloak of mystery around it that, you know, I'm not saying that those of us in the field have, have created that, but I just think it's there, that people have this sense that like their therapist or someone like me, a psychiatrist somehow can read them or, you know, see through and, and see what's wrong.
And, you know, obviously I don't look at people that way. And I don't think others in the field do either, but, you know, but just to, to recognize that really most of us are okay, just as we are truly.
And that really a lot of what's causing our emotional pain and suffering is just, it's just part of being human. And we don't have to fix ourselves before we can feel good or at least feel better. So I think if we shifted [00:10:00] our focus, just, just change what you're looking at more toward what is the light in us rather than the darkness. The darkness is still there, but I just think it becomes less and less important.
Aimee: Yeah. There is so much wisdom that we can, we can gather just by seeing our own light. That's kind of the focus and good, you know, good therapists are doing this work too. I think there is a shift happening in mental health. Okay. We need another episode for this. Stay tuned. I don't know what we'll call it.All right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna turn the tables. I'm almost going to say exactly the opposite of what I just said a moment ago.
Henry: Oh, good.
Aimee: Which is my MO, I feel like. okay, so I know the pushback then is probably all this lovey dovey crap just keeps us complacent or self absorbed. And I hear that, that survival bias, I get it. I feel it at times, absolutely, but it's just really not the case. [00:11:00] We talk about this a lot here as we work to debunk the myth that these kinds of elements that we work on here at Joy Lab, like love or compassion, to debunk the myth that they are not powerful forces, right?
They are powerful forces.I still get into that thinking those myths if I go into my more reptilian sort of fear first mode, that part of my brain. So we're working to rise up from that space. So let's debunk it right now. I think it's important to highlight that love isn't just a feeling, it's a complex emotion full of active components and it's a really effective tool for behavior change. So I'll give a surprising example, perhaps surprising, I think. Comes out of the military. So in the last 10 to 15 years, the military and I don't know my military terms, so apologies in advance to service folks. I will get my terms wrong here. but the military was [00:12:00] noticing a lot of dropouts or poor retention during boot camps and just like overall cultural issues that were negatively impacting sort of day to day outcomes and also just recruit wellbeing. So a strategy toward improving these outcomes was for drill sergeants to be just not be jerks, right? Just lighten up that image. So they shifted toward more of a counselor and trusted kind of leader role versus that past model of abuser really, right?
The usual yelling, punishing depiction that we'd see in movies and such. And as a result of this more gentle approach, recruit outcomes improved. And not just retention. But recruits began meeting even harder qualifications throughout the testing process. So, physical expectations, you know, like agility stuff, cognitive tests, all these [00:13:00] other assessments that they use for a long time, and that they actually made more difficult over that last decade or so, those recruits did better. On those measures, so I think this is a really powerful practical example of the power of love. And I also like how amidst this sort of pretty big shift in culture and leadership of these sergeants, they did not talk about love really right for their model. Their guide for this approach was framed in such a way that they were just working to shift, or to build respect and trust, that it was a commitment to each other's success, even their own as well.
It would be reducing unnecessary stress, that yelling less and listening more would build a sense of belonging. Those are loving actions. So love doesn't have to look like the summer of '69 in [00:14:00] Woodstock or a wedding day or a glossy picture. It can be very pragmatic, logical even, and it is built by practice. So love is a skill and it can show up in a lot of ways. I think even in something like basic training.
Henry: Well, I think you're right that that is a surprising example, Aimee.
Aimee: I know. I thought so too.
I
Henry: like it because it also just brings it down to like a really practical, relatable level. I think that we get hung up on the word love and just all the images, you know, projected over the years, so many different things get projected onto it, but I think for that reason, I like thinking about this in terms of kindness.
Which I just see as a broad way to think about what love might look like in these really practical ways. [00:15:00] So I hadn't been aware of this, this research or this cultural change, and I kind of am doubting that the Drill Sergeant's new approach would exactly reach that threshold of kindness that I'm talking about, but it sort of moves us in that direction.
Aimee: It's a spectrum.
Henry: It's a spectrum, and I think it just suggests that how we act toward one another is actually really important.
Aimee: Right.
Henry: So this gives me an opportunity to share one of my favorite ever quotes, and I think it's attributed to Jack Kornfield, but I'm not positive. But here's the quote. "Life is so hard. How can we be anything but kind?"
And that just resonates with me because it's so simple and I think it's so true. It also brings us back to that Baldwin quote about darkness. You know, maybe the darkness is there to help us see our own light and also to see the [00:16:00] light in others. And treat ourselves and one another in a way that reflects that.
Aimee: Yeah. Kindness. I think it is good to bring it into simplicity, and that sort of tangible aspect. Sometimes this stuff is so frustratingly simple, right, in theory, and then it can be tough on the battlefield, so to speak. so, okay, we've referenced the military and drill sergeants, wisdom of Jack Kornfield, James Baldwin's words, The dying words of Socrates,
Henry: Wow, this is a wide ranging conversation.
Aimee: Which is, yeah, it's, it, it all, it all comes down to this point, but it is all big stuff. Like it comes to this point of how can I just love myself more and love others more too. Right? That's what we're focusing on. Got all these great folks from, the beyond as well, joining us here for this conversation. And I think, yeah, if you're adulting [00:17:00] now and maybe the adults in your life when you were a kid were no James Baldwin or Kornfield or Socrates, when it came to love, and introspection perhaps. So maybe you feel like you weren't given a good model of it. Or maybe you're the drill sergeant in your life. Maybe because, and this is such a common message, that you believe the path to change is brutal and you have to punish yourself to get there. Which is false. And it's pervasive. But maybe we have been so hard on ourselves for so long that acting in a loving way feels difficult or even impossible. And I think the most important thing we'll probably say here then is that love is a skill. If you're too hard on yourself, you can change that. If you weren't modeled it, you can still learn it. As Baldwin noted, for nothing is fixed. Forever and forever and forever. It is not fixed. So we can change. We can bring more love into our [00:18:00] lives by practicing it. We can begin to see our own light and we can feel more connected and in love with this world around us. And there are very simple practices that we can use to do that.
Henry: Yeah, I think that quote about that nothing is fixed is really another way of talking about the Buddhist concept of impermanence, which I think is hard for us to get our minds around. And it might be because we just don't want things to be impermanent, you know, at least the things we like. If things are good, we don't want them to change or to go away.
And yet they do, just like you said, forever and forever and forever, it is not fixed. So yes, we can change. In fact, we will change no matter what. And I just find it so helpful with that backdrop to think of these elements, including the element of love, as skills that we can grow with practice. [00:19:00] So that might be why I like to kind of operationalize this by, by thinking of it as kindness, because I can almost always think about how to treat someone kindly, no matter what the situation is, you know, what would be a kind thing to do right now.
There's almost always obvious answer to that. Now, I might not always do it, you know, that, that's the practice, right? We don't have to be perfect right out of the gate. We don't have to be Olympic level kindness experts. But it's important. Of course it should be. And, we know that if we just keep working out our kindness muscles, our loving muscles, they're going to get stronger.
Just like if we were lifting weights, those muscles are going to get stronger if we just stick with it and keep practicing.
Aimee: Yes. I love it. But start small. You don't need to squat a thousand pounds on your first day and give yourself a bloody nose. So let's do some reps [00:20:00] first. Let's do that by leaning on Baldwin's quote to help guide us. So, Baldwin's our spotter today. Here's the part we can focus on this passage again. "One discovers the light in the darkness. That is what darkness is for, but everything in our lives depends on how we bear the light. It is necessary while in darkness to know that there is a light somewhere, to know that in oneself, waiting to be found, there is a light." So there's a practice in couples counseling and in behavior change research called spotlighting the right. I think it fits here. And this is a really simple practice that we can offer to ourselves way more often. So the key is, it's kind of as it sounds, you identify something right amidst a challenge, or when you do something small, something that is loving, that is kind, you spotlight that. Right? You saved a bug [00:21:00] on the sidewalk today. Spotlight your compassion. You took a five minute walk because you felt agitated. That's a great way to calm your system. Spotlight it. So, by doing this, by highlighting what is going well, what is right with us, what is strong, even those little good things that we do, even amidst the darkness, it's kind of like bringing a flashlight is what I think of, right? We need that light to see. and I like this practice because again, you can start really simple. If nothing feels right, you can notice, I am breathing. That is a good thing. And then you just kind of keep going from there if you can, right? Maybe you've been trying to breathe more smoothly when you're in the presence of someone who really seems to agitate you. Spotlight that. You could think, I have been practicing deep breaths when I feel rage or resentment, and I can calm my system down. Spotlight that. Celebrate [00:22:00] it. And stuff will start to follow. It's just a phenomenon of the universe. You will see more good things when you, when you start to spotlight your right. When you bring your flashlight, when you bring your attention to what is good in you, you will see more good things because we are all good. We all have light in us.So that's a simple exercise. Grab a piece of paper or do it in your head. Spotlight the right, spotlight a few rights and do it daily. It'll take two minutes max. Henry, do you have anything else you'd like to add to that or a different strategy?
Henry: Well, I remember reading about this research, at least I think it's the same research you're talking about, Aimee. And when I saw it, it was sort of an aha moment for me. I thought, wow, this is, this is really good practical stuff. And what I took from it, maybe this says something about me, but what I took from it is that if you want to change somebody else's [00:23:00] behavior, like your partner, for example, being critical and telling them what's wrong, it's just a terrible strategy because it doesn't work. It's far more effective to just make a comment when they do the thing that you want them to do. You don't even have to make a big deal of it. You just want to bring attention to it. I love the idea of applying this to ourselves too. Just bring the attention to what's right, what you did well, an act of kindness you did.
Just seeing it. Makes it grow.
Aimee: Yeah, it is a great practice. We need to find that article. I cannot find it anywhere. I don't know who published it. I don't know where it went. So folks, we're a team. We need to find that. We need to spotlight the right article. Give credit to that person.
Thanks for joining us!: Spotlight their wisdom. If you find it, put it in the comments in YouTube. I want to read it again. [00:24:00] So, this was a really globally nourishing conversation. I feel like for me, I hope you all listening, would agree and I hope it has been nourishing for you. To close our time today. I'm feeling the energy to return to the beginning. I think I want to end with some of what we shared from James Baldwin at the top of the episode. So let's just keep coming back to our light and the light around us. Here it is: "One discovers the light in darkness. That is what darkness is for. But everything in our lives depends on how we bear the light. It is necessary, while in darkness, to know that there is a light somewhere. To know that in oneself, waiting to be found, there is a light." Thank you for listening to the Joy Lab podcast. If you enjoy today's show, visit JoyLab.coach to learn more about the full Joy Lab program. [00:25:00] Be sure to rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.
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