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Welcome to Joy Lab!: Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast, where we help you uncover and foster your most joyful self. Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr. Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of soulful and scientifically sound tools to spark your joy, even when it feels dark. When you're ready to experiment with more joy, combine this podcast with the full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
Henry: Hello, I'm Henry Emmons.
Aimee: And I'm Aimee Prasek. So welcome to Joy Lab, where we infuse science with soul to help you uncover joy. Now to do that, we focus on creating positive emotions that become the building blocks for a joyful life. So the theme of this episode is awe. Not aww, A W W, but A W E, as in awe inspiring.
Henry: That's kind of a big deal theme, isn't it? And I'm okay with that. But for a lot of us, [00:01:00] as we go through our everyday lives, filled with tasks and routines, maybe searching for a little fun now and then. Being struck with awe can seem a little bit like being struck by lightning. It's really rare and it's completely outside of our control.
You have to be in just the right place at just the right time. And even then, it pretty well has to hit us over the head in order for us to notice it.
Aimee: Right. And you know, that I think there's value in those hit you over the head experiences. I'm, I'm venturing back in my mind to Lake Superior when I saw the Northern Lights just once, never again, uh, very rare for me.
So, you know, I, I also want to highlight sort of that mystery that is central to awe. It's this experience of witnessing something without being able to quite put it into words or explain it. [00:02:00] And that's not always so easy. Right? There's a lot of pressure to know, to explain everything, uh, sort of this not knowing is a weakness.
We can fall into that trap. Uh, but not knowing rarely is a weakness. It's more about not being curious. And curious folks are more likely to experience awe. We talked about curiosity in the last episode, so head over there after this one. So on top of being comfortable with that mystery, if awe is limited to lightning strikes, as you just said, Henry, then it can feel really out of reach.
And like we have to be this sort of ultra spiritual sage worthy of the divine before we can really access awe. But one of our goals here at Joy Lab is to make the elements of joy accessible. And awe is accessible. And everyone listening, you are already divine, so you are ready for awe.
Henry: Absolutely. And you know, we are going to offer some real life stories and specific [00:03:00] examples, hopefully, because we really do want to make this accessible.
But first, let's set the stage with another beautiful gift from Mary Oliver, whose poems are really often about being filled with awe. But instead of a lightning bolt, it happens for her through everyday encounters with the world of nature. So, Aimee, would you do the honors of sharing this poem?
Aimee: Yeah. So, this is called Where Does the Temple Begin? Where Does It End? " There are things you can't reach, but you can reach out to them, and all day long, the wind, the bird flying away, the idea of God. And it can keep you as busy as anything else and happier. The snake slides away, the fish jumps like a little lily out of the water and [00:04:00] back in. The goldfinches sing from the unreachable top of the tree.
I look. Morning to night I am never done with looking. Looking. I mean not just standing around, but standing around. As though with your arms open. And thinking. Maybe something will come. Some shining coil of wind or a few leaves from any old tree. They are all in this too. And now I will tell you the truth.
Everything in the world comes, at least closer and cordially, like the nibbling, tinsel eyed fish, the unlooping snake, like goldfinches, little dolls of gold, fluttering around the corner of the sky, of God, the blue air."
Henry: When I hear a poem like that, I can't help but [00:05:00] wonder, how did she do it? Again and again, how did Mary Oliver see the world so differently from most of us? Because it really does seem like she had a kind of reverence for nature. As if she saw the sacred in it. And I wonder if that was actually her secret.
It was in the way she saw things. It just really seems about perception, doesn't it? With so much of how we experience the world, it seems to have more to do with perception than with what actually happens.
Aimee: Yeah, CBT, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, really digs into that. It is a piece of it we like here. We integrate CBT here at Joy Lab as well. CBT teaches us how mistakes in our thinking can change mood, which then changes the quality of our experience. And I find it super helpful when we're exploring something like [00:06:00] awe to then understand what gets in the way. And mindfulness and CBT will give the same answer for that.
The problem lies in our mind. So I want to dig into that. What are the mistakes in our thinking that block us from letting in the good? You answer that, Henry.
That's for you.
Henry: So this is for me. Well, I think there are two things that stand in the way of seeing the world like Mary Oliver. And unfortunately, as CBT has taught us, they can be big contributors to depression. So one of them is called overgeneralization. And that is when the mind plays this little trick on us.
For example, when it stores a bad memory or some negative association from the past, but then it keeps [00:07:00] pulling it out and connecting it to something that's happening now. That's a little bit like that metaphor of the meadow that we discussed when we talked about neuroplasticity. So if you create a path by walking over the same ground again and again.
Then when someone else comes to the meadow, they see it and they're likely to take the same path. So similarly, when we have the same thought again and again, the same negative thought or expectation, then when something that's actually unrelated comes along, it's likely to go down that same pathway. Now this happens automatically.
I imagine that the brain does this for the sake of efficiency, but it can still hurt us. And to undo this, we have to develop the ability to observe [00:08:00] ourselves and to see that we're overgeneralizing. That way, we have a chance to stop ourselves and say, Wait a minute, this is not the same situation as before.
This person in front of me is not necessarily thinking the same things about me that so and so did in the past. I do not have to expect the same outcome. The second error of thinking is called filtering, and it's just like what it sounds. Imagine you're cooking and you use a colander to wash your rice.
The water comes through, but the rice doesn't. It is filtered. How often has something like this happened to you? The criticisms or attacks get through, but the praise or support doesn't. That is filtering. Now, it's really [00:09:00] hard to be filled with awe, not because it isn't there, but because it doesn't get through the filters.
Somehow, we have convinced ourselves that the negative stuff is important to let in, but the positive stuff isn't. In Joy Lab, we believe that it is helpful to know about mental errors like these. But at the same time, we don't have to wait until we root them out somehow in order to feel joy. So, Aimee, I know that there's a lot of research out there on this topic from the positive psychology folks. Talk a little bit about what that tells us about ways that we can bypass these errors of thinking.
Aimee: Yeah, there's a lot of cool research I'd love to geek out on a recent study actually, um, that I think illustrates how [00:10:00] accessible awe really is, when we invite it in and when we practice it, like any other skill, like any of our other elements of joy that we work on here at Joy Lab.
So this particular study, had a participant group of 50 older folks, but studies with younger folks will say the same thing. So I'll describe the study here quickly. Half of the participants went for weekly 15 minute walks outdoors alone for 8 weeks. That was the control group. And this other half, the experimental, let's call them the awe group, took the same walks, but we're encouraged to visit a new place each time, and were instructed to note things that inspired a sense of awe for them during their walk. And all participants took selfies, which I love, during their walks, and then they answered daily surveys, sort of about their day to day emotions. Now, here's what the researchers found.
The group who took [00:11:00] the awe walks reported less distress and over the eight week period increasing awe, joy, compassion, and gratitude compared with, people on the regular walks. So it sort of demonstrates this time and practice effect. You know, as they did it more, they experienced awe more. And those positive emotions more.
And a lot of other awe research has found the same. Awe boosts feelings like generosity, wellbeing, humility. Now this is also cool. A little piece of the study. Awe walkers compared to the control group also smiled more. And made themselves smaller in their selfie photos. So the pictures with these awe walkers included more of the environment around them, the trees, the leaves, the grasses, birds, the scenery.
And the researchers interpreted this as [00:12:00] evidence of the awe walkers having a shifted focus on what's called the small self during their walks. And the small self phenomenon is something across lot of the awe research, not just this study. So the small self, It maybe doesn't sound great, right? But it is, especially when you're experiencing depression and you're stuck in your own thoughts and criticism and shame and many of us know the et cetera downward spiral there.
But this small self, sort of positions us back into reality. And this idea that we're a small part of something bigger. And that recognition can help us put problems sort of back into perspective, empathize more with others. It can shift us from this sort of self obsession, self importance, and back into this big world where here's the sort of ironic part; [00:13:00] where the small self feels more connected, where we feel more connected, we feel more supported by community, more supportive of community, more in touch with a purpose. So I love this study. It's, it's like so simple. Go out and walk. And look for awe, like for 15 minutes, once a week, and you'll find it.
Right? As I say, sort of, that which you are seeking is also seeking you. Awe is waiting right there on your walk and you'll feel better when you do it. Now, so the study and what we've discussed, uh, so far revolves mostly around letting experiences get through that filter, Henry, that you kind of described, how to let in the good so that we can have more feelings of awe.
But Henry, as you and I have also talked about, there's that awe that comes from within us. And you shared with me an experience a while back with someone struggling with anxiety that I think illustrates [00:14:00] this awe within. So I'm hoping you can share that with us.
Henry: Sure, I'd love to. So this encounter occurred a few years ago and I was seeing a woman in her early 40s, I believe, I was seeing her for the first time. And she was actually coming to participate in a resilience training program that I was, I was running at the time. So when I meet someone like that for the first time, one of my goals is to give them the opportunity to really share their story a little more deeply perhaps than they've had a chance to do before. So we take a good long time and you know, sometimes I need to prompt them with questions and, kind of dig deeper or maybe I'm looking for a certain thing.
But in this case, uh, I didn't need to say much at all because the, [00:15:00] this woman was really ready to tell her story and share it. So I, I essentially sat and took it in, and listened and I let myself be moved by it. Something I often do, but I think for some reason it happened more than usual this time.
So, uh, I don't need to go into a lot of her details, but essentially, she, she shared her life story about how anxiety had really taken over more and more of her world. It could have had shrunk her, her world, which is an unfortunate consequence of anxiety oftentimes. But it started in childhood and it impacted her ability to develop friendships when she was young, her ability to really excel academically, and she was plenty bright but, you know, [00:16:00] everything created anxiety for her.
And even, you know, later on when she entered her career and was, you know, just held back by this in so many different ways and, you know, um, significant relationships, family relationships, virtually everything in her life was touched by this in a painful way. So the thing that really struck me about the way that she shared this story was that she was clearly grieving the loss, the series of losses that this had created for her
over the course of her life. She was grieving it, and I don't think she had, had finished, or worked through the grieving. She was carrying it, still. It was heavy and hard. But there was something else about her, too, that was unspoken and I don't know that [00:17:00] she was aware of it but I certainly was and when she finished telling her story she paused and she said something that just struck me and stayed with me for a long time.
She said " I am more than this. My life is more than this." And she said it in such a way that I could see the grief in it, but I could also see the strength in it, the defiance, if you will. She had not given up. She was bent, but she was not broken. And it was just, for me, a profound moment. I think you could say that that was a moment of awe for me, just seeing this in her and actually being able to experience this with another person.
It was [00:18:00] deeply meaningful. So I, I left that, that session, feeling very filled, very moved by it. And it actually stayed with me for quite a while, which doesn't always happen anymore after 30 some years, but it did for some reason. And then the next morning, I received in my email inbox a poem that just absolutely struck me as being related to her. So this, this poem was, I'm going to have Aimee read it if you, if you would in a moment, but it was really about that part of her that I was able to see that, I think that touched me and moved me so much. So Aimee, if you don't mind, why don't you, why don't you share this poem?
Aimee: It's called Can't You See the Mighty Warrior. I'm gonna change a few [00:19:00] pronouns in here. " Can't you see the mighty warrior? How often you ask, what is my path? What is my cure? She has made you a seeker of unity. Isn't that enough? All your sorrow exists for one reason, that you may end sorrow forever. The desire to know your own soul will end all other desires.
Can't you see? If you are not the king or queen, what meaning is there in a kingly or queenly entourage? If the beautiful one is not inside you, what is that light hidden under your cloak? From a distance you tremble with fear. Can't you see the mighty warrior standing ready in your heart? Open your eyes. The beloved is staring you right in the face. If a master has not placed her light in your heart, [00:20:00] what joy can you find in this world?"
Henry: Well, that is Rumi, the poet Rumi, talking about this. hidden strength, beauty, awe, that we carry inside of us. And I think that you can see why this struck me as being related to the, the woman that I had encountered the day before. It was just, it was just, a profound moment for me. And it was something that I've really carried with me.
And I actually see this oftentimes in the patients that I work with who are really struggling with something like anxiety or depression. And of course, who doesn't struggle, in some way or another, but again, that is not the end of the story. That's not the whole, as she said, my life is more than this.
I am [00:21:00] more than this. And, and I don't know that she was able to see that, that she was aware of that mighty warrior or that, light within her. I don't know that she could see it, but I could. And I think that if she could see it, and I'm saying this really now to all of you, if you can connect with that part of yourself that is in fact awe inspiring, you might find that some of the suffering just disappears. Just like, you know, the poem says, " all your sorrow exists for one reason, that you may end sorrow forever."
What I wanted to say to my patient then and what I want to say to you now is that you don't [00:22:00] have to be cured in order to find joy in this world. You don't need to be fixed. You don't even have to eliminate all of your negative thinking. You can focus instead on seeing the good and letting it come in through the filters of your perception.
And you don't have to suffer either. As you let in the goodness, is actually all around you, and already within you, the suffering can simply dissipate. It's as if it has nothing much to grab on to. Now you can practice this. You can practice this as simply as taking a 15 minute walk once a week where you hold the intention to see things as if they're new and to look for the awe [00:23:00] in them.
You can practice this by taking a few moments and turning inward with the intention of finding the awe that is within you. And as you do this, as you practice this more and more often, it doesn't take a lot of time, it becomes easier to do, it becomes more natural. And it can even become second nature, so you don't have to work at it, but you can just turn your mind to it and there it is.
Aimee: Yeah, and that's, that's what we practice here. And we do it more in depth through the Joy Lab program where we really work on how to open our eyes and change the filters of perception so that we can all have more experiences of awe both from outside and from [00:24:00] inside. So I want to thank you so much, everyone, for joining us for the Joy Lab podcast.
Henry: And so do I. And until next time, we encourage you to try to see the world like Mary Oliver did and notice God in the blue air. Or, see the world like Rumi did and see that light hidden under your cloak, that mighty warrior standing ready in your heart.
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