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intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Joy Lab Podcast, where we help you uncover and foster your most joyful self. Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr. Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of soulful and scientifically sound tools to spark your joy, even when it feels dark. When you're ready to experiment with more joy, combine this podcast with the full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
Henry: Hello, I'm Henry Emmons.
Aimee: And I'm Aimee Prasek. So welcome to Joy Lab, where we infuse science with soul to help you uncover joy. To do that, we focus on key elements that become the building blocks of a joyful life. So our element for this episode is curiosity. I maybe hope or bet we ignited your curiosity already.
What on earth does curiosity have to do with joy? Well, let's dive in. We'll begin 2600 years ago and we'll go a little quicker after that with the opening lines from the [00:01:00] Dhammapada, one of the oldest known spiritual texts. So, listen for some wisdom here on how curiosity might work to reshape our brains:
"We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. Speak or act with an impure mind, and trouble will follow you, as surely as the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart."
Now the Dhammapada describes another path: "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts, we make the world. Speak or act with a pure mind, and happiness will follow you, as surely as your shadow. Unshakeable."
Henry: So when I hear that, believe it or not, I think of neuroplasticity. Now, of course, there was no understanding in Buddha's time of neurons, neurotransmitters, channels in the brain, but the insight is [00:02:00] stunning.
This line, "as surely as the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart," sounds to me like what happens when we create a neural pathway, simply by repeating the same thoughts over and over again. The wheel finds the rutted channel in the road where lots of carts have gone before. So let me take a couple of minutes to paint a little fuller picture of how I think neuroplasticity happens. So imagine that you are standing in front of a grassy meadow and you have long, tall grass kind of waving in the wind and no one has ever walked across it. But then you decide to walk across that meadow one time. You can look back and see very faintly where you have been. I think that's similar to what happens the very first time that you [00:03:00] have a thought, a novel thought, or the first time that you do a complex movement or other activity.
You have laid down a pathway in your brain, but it's very light. And if you never walked across that meadow again, the path would simply disappear. Now, imagine then that you walk this path again and again and again, every day, maybe many, many times a day. It's easy to imagine that with a little bit of time, you are going to create a real pathway, and you can look back and you can see very clear- this is a path across this meadow. In fact, it becomes so clear that anybody else who comes to this meadow and sees that is very likely to take that path themselves because it is so clearly a path. Now I believe that is similar to what happens when we entertain the [00:04:00] same negative thoughts about ourselves over and over again, or the same fearful thoughts about the world, or when we simply keep feeding our minds with, uh, you know, negative, frightening news or, or images.
We are laying down the pathway and then reinforcing it over and over again by simple repetition. So, um, with time enough, then that path is clearly visible to anyone else that comes to the meadow and that's kind of similar to what happens once we've laid down this path of negativity or negative emotions.
Some other event that seems unrelated can very easily take us down that same path again.
Aimee: Yeah, I can, uh, I can see that well worn path with many footprints of mine on it. And I'm guessing those listening have felt those ruts as well. [00:05:00]
Henry: Yeah, I think we all have. I just see it as part of the human experience.
But there's another side of the human experience that we can grow intentionally on purpose. And that's what Joy Lab is about. So, imagine then that you decide or you realize that you've created some of these negative pathways. You can choose, if you're aware enough, you can choose to refrain every time you have the urge to go down that path.
You can opt not to do it. And if you can do that long enough, you are eventually going to see that path essentially disappear. It might still be there, you know, and easily reawakened, so to speak, but for all intents and purposes, it goes away. And we can do that when we bring [00:06:00] consciousness, awareness to some of these, these negative paths that we've created.
But we can also choose to create more positive ones. So if you have an experience that you really want to grow or to reinforce, You can purposely take some time to begin having those thoughts or creating those images and repeating them over and over again in your mind. And you start to create something that's new and positive and helps you to see the world differently.
Aimee: Yeah, I think that lines up with, um, one of the lines from the Dhammapada that we just, uh, that I just introduced, with our thoughts, we make the world. Right, so that's like a massive idea there. So thinking of that, how can we apply that to curiosity and joy?
Henry: Well, I think in a sense that quote from the Dharmapada is all about the mind's [00:07:00] power to create our experience of the world.
And it describes how that power can lead to trouble or to happiness. I believe it's in our best interest to learn how to have more influence over that process. And I see curiosity as a primary means to drive that creativity in a more positive direction. So the buddhist path to a more joyful life is often referred to as the middle way.
And there's a concept in the world of mental health that I think fits really nicely in line with that and it is this spectrum from rigidity to chaos. This refers to the state of our minds, which includes both the thoughts and emotions inside of us. Now with this spectrum, you don't want to live at either extreme.
You want to spend most of your [00:08:00] time somewhere in the middle. In other words, you want to find that middle way.
Aimee: Yeah, I, uh, I'm very familiar with edges of that spectrum, uh, perhaps others here. So, sort of to describe them a little bit more, rigidity, so digging in our heels, sort of the inability to break out of a looping thought. And then chaotic when our thoughts and emotions feel unstable, disjointed, all over the place.
And so it sort of doesn't seem like a huge problem as long as we don't get stuck on either end or the other. But when we do get stuck, it really puts an end to curiosity and creativity really quickly.
Henry: That's right. In CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy, we can easily see that this rigid, fixed pattern of thinking is often associated with depression.
It's that need for the [00:09:00] world to be black and white, for things to be either right or wrong. And sometimes we need to be right ourselves so badly that we fight tooth and nail to prove our point even at the potential cost of a relationship. I believe that we can use curiosity to lubricate those mental gears that otherwise get stuck and to get us back to a more flexible way of thinking and a greater openness to our emotions. Aimee, I get the impression that you don't get stuck like this very often, and I'm pretty sure I'm right about that.
So can you just take, take a moment, talk a little bit about how you use curiosity to keep yourself out of this rigid way of thinking?
Aimee: Yeah. Uh, uh, I can, but I definitely used to get stuck. I was a chaos [00:10:00] champ. That was my spectrum side. And I, I think it might help as well to identify two key dimensions of curiosity. At least this really helped me. So, externally generated curiosity and internally generated curiosity. So these dimensions, with the external dimension, we're essentially relying on our environment to entertain us.
And now the internally generated dimension, that type of curiosity, just sort of sparks from within, right, without being dependent on what's going on around us. And now that type of curiosity, the internally generated one, is more of what we work with in Joy Lab, and it's more associated with positive mental and physical health.
Now the external one is nourishing as well, but it can be, let's say, more easily overdone. Outside of that middle way and can distract from the curiosity that really needs to happen in our own internal landscape. And I actually want to take some lines, Henry, from your book called Staying Sharp. I think [00:11:00] it describes the trap perfectly when external curiosity runs amok.
So in the book, curiosity is described as an "outgrowth of our internal unrest." And it continues, "for some that unrest generates the motivation to pursue new opportunities and new challenges. It is a potent and creative force." Right, so that's really what we're working on with Joy Lab.
Henry: Yes, that's the good side of curiosity and that's where we want to live.
But we do have to be a little careful because too much of a good thing can be just too much. Curiosity can be overdone too, and then it may create a kind of perpetual discontent that looks and feels a little bit like depression. It can be a sign of an unsettled mind, and it can just push us a little bit [00:12:00] more toward that chaotic side of the spectrum.
Aimee: Yep, you just described me, Henry. So that's what I struggled with for a lot of years. Um, I'll give two, I think I'll give two good examples here. I attended seven colleges and universities in a pretty short period of time, convinced I could outsmart depression. It didn't work. Uh, and my friends always make fun of me for this one.
I've had like 50 jobs. I'm not exaggerating. Everything from playing McGruff, the crime dog, for elementary schools, to illegally selling flowers in bars on the central coast. And there's like a bunch of other gigs in there that I'm not going to explain. But each, many, were really sort of a frantic attempt to stay distracted, um, from and to run from the anxiety and sadness that I would feel in the more unentertained moments of my life.
And so, there's another line from [00:13:00] Staying Sharp, uh, I think that, really describes how to sort of cultivate that, that healthy curiosity, that middle road. Here it is. "Let's strike a balance between healthy seeking and constant distraction, recklessness or disillusionment." That middle way. And so, I, I kind of really see this as a grass is greener phenomenon as well.
At least that's what it felt like for me. And so, to also merge it with the meadow metaphor. Uh, you sort of continue to go down that well worn path, searching for happiness, searching for joy, convinced it's waiting for you on the patch of grass just on the other side. You're kind of sort of convinced that that path is different every time, right?
It looks sort of novel, but it really is that same path toward that same patch of grass that seems to be greener. And, and when you get there, it's awesome for a moment. Dopamine hits. But then the novelty wears off [00:14:00] and this discomfort bubbles up again.
And I think what's interesting is, that discomfort... now here's, here's kind of the hard part and what we dig into Joy Lab with that discomfort is so potent when it comes to the benefits of curiosity. That's kind of where the learning happens. Is that right, Henry?
Henry: Right, right. You know, if you have even a little bit of openness, you can see things that maybe you didn't see before.
And that broader perspective might, at first, make you a little uncomfortable, but it's that very discomfort that can create those new neural connections. Now, it might raise your stress level temporarily, but I see it as a good stress. It gets quickly resolved, and then the new pathway can start to be [00:15:00] reinforced.
Aimee: Yeah, I thinkthe ability to sit with that feeling of discomfort. I think it was really the practice of mindfulness that helped me the most and the idea of beginner's mind that brought me back into the balance, between rigidity and chaos. The idea that, you know, oh this is new for me. I don't have to be an expert or resolve this.
I can just be with this experience and then if needed, maybe make my next best step. And, um, I think toddlers and dogs are sort of the best demonstrators of this healthy curiosity. I'll give some direct quotes from my toddler and my dogs . Here they are. Ooh, look at this rock. This rock and this rock, these are the most beautiful rocks I've ever seen, and that rock.
And look at this stick. This is the most interesting stick I've ever seen. Let's build a tower with these sticks and rocks. Let's [00:16:00] run around with them and, and chew them up. Rip it to shreds.
Henry: Absolutely. You know, we recently got a young puppy, which has given me a lot of new experiences. One of the coolest things about Bodhi is that he's teaching me to see the world with fresh eyes. There are just so many firsts for him. The first time he encountered a child, or a much bigger dog, or even a really hot day. But even the things that he's experienced many times look a lot like they're new to him, or at least he sure seems curious to see what happens next.
Aimee: I like that you named your dog Bodhi, Henry, short for Bodhisattva, I believe, which means enlightened one. Uh, so how is that going for you guys? Is he, is he acting out under the pressure of living up [00:17:00] to the enlightened one?
Henry: Well, you know, that's, that's the thing. He doesn't appear to feel any pressure at all.
I think it's because to him, there is no past and there's no future. There is only right now. Even if right now he is being a little bit of a stinker. And yeah, we named him Bodhi, partly because I really wanted him to be my teacher. But here's something I didn't really expect to learn from him. How to deal with anger and frustration.
Aimee: Yes, we have two dogs at home. Um, one is a little bit of an older puppy, just over a year. Uh, and shall we say she, uh, ushered a baby bunny into the great beyond this week and left it in the yard for me. So I could have cued you into anger and frustration as learning possibilities with puppies.
Henry: Well, we [00:18:00] haven't had a puppy for over 30 years and I somehow only imagined the good stuff and forgot about the biting, the chewing, the general naughtiness.
But here's what I see in him and I will tie this back to curiosity. Bodhi is already a master at letting go of negative emotions. He can get really mad at me too, when I won't let him do exactly what he wants to do. And I mean ferociously mad. But then, one minute, two minutes later, it's gone. It's like it never happened.
Whereas I might hold on to it for an hour or two, just for fun, or maybe even all day if it was really intense. Now I didn't actually need a puppy to show me that I hold on to negative emotions. I knew that. I've known it for a long time, and I've worked on it, and I've gotten a lot better. But clearly, I [00:19:00] have not mastered it.
I'm actually okay with that, because I know there is no final mastery. Curiosity teaches us that. There's always more to learn. There's always something new before us, and that's actually a good thing.
Aimee: I love that. Um, there's no mastery. There's always more to learn. Always something new awaiting. So, curiosity is really a core concept for us at Joy Lab.
And for those of us doing the program, it's a constant thread through everything we dig into. Joy Lab, it's a learning laboratory. I'm a scientist. I love that.
Henry: Right. I do too. And being a scientist really means becoming a good observer.
Being able to watch the experiment unfold with an open mind because you don't yet know the outcome. So instead of [00:20:00] thinking that you already know how things are going to turn out or being afraid of how they might turn out, you can be genuinely interested in what happens. And I think when we approach life in that way It becomes a training ground for being in the moment.
So let me close with a beautiful quote by the author Elizabeth Gilbert, and here it is: " I think curiosity is our friend that teaches us how to become ourselves. And it's a very gentle friend, and a very forgiving friend, and a very constant one. Creative living is choosing the path of curiosity over the path of fear."
Thanks for joining us!: Thank you for listening to the Joy Lab podcast. If you enjoyed today's show, visit JoyLab.coach to learn more [00:21:00] about the full Joy Lab program. Be sure to rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.
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