Welcome to Joy Lab!: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast, where we help you uncover and foster your most joyful self. Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr. Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of soulful and scientifically sound tools to spark your joy, even when it feels dark. When you're ready to experiment with more joy, combine this podcast with the full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
Henry: Hello, I'm Henry Emmons and welcome to Joy Lab.
Aimee: I'm Aimee Prasek. Here at Joy Lab, we infuse science with soul to help you build your resilience and uncover your joy. And today we are talking about the power of awe and intellectual humility as well. So we wanted to tie these together because we are getting closer to the heat of political season , well, heat is the right word, but, there's rallies, debates, all sorts of things, right? And [00:01:00] watching, this heat up made me think about how awe and intellectual humility are related and necessary. So I'll use researcher Dr. Dacher Keltner's definition of awe to help us understand it here, which is, "The emotion we experience when we encounter vast mysteries that we don't understand." Now, with awe, the research is pretty clear that when we are really in that state of awe, when we tap into it, it, increases our perspective.
We tend to "other", quote, "other" less, right? We're less divisive, less polarized in our thinking. That definition and those outcomes are really similar to intellectual humility. I think there's a close relationship here. So intellectual humility is the understanding that we just don't know it all. And not only do we not know it all, we are often wrong about a lot. I love it.it's a state of being [00:02:00] a human in this infinite universe, right? You are not as correct as you think you are. Yes, you. Thinking you're the exception to this.
Henry: You talking to me, Aimee? You seem to be talking right to me.
Aimee: I'm talking to myself too. Yeah, pretty much everybody, right? I can be a terrible know it all. Definitely something I've worked on. Intellectual humility is really important to me because it's something I needed to practice a lot of. It's been a journey for me. I'm thankful for it. I'm not talking directly you, Henry! So, this is an important realization that is actually also very good for our mental health. It's a concept we've explored a bit in other episodes. So I'll link to those in the show notes. And so we're tying these together, and intellectual humility. we're not the first to do this. I don't think either.
There was a 2018 study that found that participants who reported experiencing day to day awe, were [00:03:00] thought to be more humble by their friends. Isn't that interesting? I love that. So I think what I like about pairing these together is that it also offers more paths toward this kind of shared goal. If experiencing awe seems like esoteric or out there for you, then you can work on boosting your intellectual humility.That might be like a more tangible kind of path to explore first for folks. And the benefits to mental health are powerful no matter which one you start with.
Henry: This is such good timing to have this conversation, Aimee. I think this is right on, and I am completely on board with anything that reduces our divisions right now. And I love it that research finds that when we experience awe, we are less likely to see others as being separate from us.
I have to think that's because the experience of awe breaks [00:04:00] through this illusion of separation.
Maybe it's because when we're in awe, we aren't seeing ourselves as the center of our universe, which is a ridiculous idea in the first place, but this really puts that in perspective. And it gives us the sense that might make some people feel small when we're experiencing this degree of awe, but I don't think that's the point. It's just good not to see ourselves as being central to everything, and that can be really helpful. I think it's easier then to realize that we are all in this together, which we are, no matter what we're hearing in the political conversation right now. The, the outcome of this is going to affect all of us. I have to say though, I don't love that definition of awe that you quoted from Dr. Keltner. And I'll just see if I can say it back, the way you described it. It's the [00:05:00] emotion we experience when we encounter vast mysteries that we don't understand. Now, I imagine that's what most of us would think of when we hear the word awe, but right now at least it makes it seem like it's too special or too rare of an experience to have that.
It just doesn't feel like it has quite as much relevance to my day to day life as I'd like it to.I mean, honestly, how, how often do most of us spend time contemplating vast mysteries that we don't understand. Hopefully we do once in a while, but it's, it seems uncommon. And I don't know, maybe intellectual humility is uncommon as well.
I think it's good that we're having this conversation and maybe it can increase our sense of interconnection just a little bit. Thich Nhat Hanh was very fond of saying, [00:06:00] inter being, that we are inter being and, we're just so connected in ways that we often forget about.
Aimee: I think I like your take on that definition. I think that's a really good point.It does seem big when it's described in that way. Vast, vast mysteries. Like you have to have a deep spiritual transformation or insight from it all. No. Nope. I saw a dragonfly yesterday. That was amazing. I didn't contemplate, my existence in this universe.
But the colors were... just brought me awe. So,I think that's an important point. Maybe also then that relates to this idea as well that awe and intellectual humility are not like a head in the clouds or a head in the sand kind of situation. They are grounded in daily life. They're both associated with increased curiosity and the desire to learn more. [00:07:00] You want to know more about the world or just that dragonfly. Or you're just curious about it instead of judging it immediately. You're less apt to put those blinders up and try to escape from it.I think the other piece of it is that we are more curious than we are interested in being right.
And that really matters. Back to what we talked about right away here. There's something called the overconfidence bias. And I think it's very relevant, right now to what we're talking about. The overconfidence bias describes our tendency to regularly overestimate our abilities, knowledge, and beliefs. And we all do this, to certain degrees, and in certain contexts. Psychologist, Dr. Scott Plous has noted that overconfidence is the most pervasive and catastrophic plague on our thinking and on our decision making. I think he's spot on. I'm just thinking about actually what also [00:08:00] happens here as well.
Confirmation bias, where we see what we expect to see, and then there's also desirability bias, where we see what we want to see. You add all of these biases together with overconfidence bias and then of course we're rigid in our thinking.
Of course we can't see our outside of our blinders. We all do this. And then for a moment you had the Dunning Kruger effect, right? Where we, the less we know, the more we think we know. It's just wild. We're caught in a web of biases and unless we see them and step out of them, God, you just, you'll never see anything, right?
You'll just see what you want to see. You'll see what you think you're going to see. So these biases are on full display from a lot of self proclaimed experts who have no grounded training in a field and they confidently spread rigid truths, believing they have all the answers. And I don't think they're doing it for theater.
I think this is important to know. Most often, [00:09:00] they don't know enough to realize that they don't know enough. They're not dumb. And we all do this. We're not dumb. We just can't see our biases if we don't pay attention. So, again, it's not just these charismatic folks. These influencers. We all do this. So this combination of curiosity, flexibility, wonder, a feeling of being connected to something bigger than ourselves, I think that's what we're working toward here. Those are antidotes. Those are important aspects of good mental health. So do you want to speak more to those differences there, Henry, between the qualities compared to sort of this rigidity in thinking when it comes to mental health and, intellectual humility and awe?
Henry: Sure. And I think what you just said really brings this to a more accessible level. Curiosity, flexibility, wonder, being connected to something bigger than ourselves. I just love that and that feels accessible to [00:10:00] me. So long time listeners know that I am fond of pointing out that when talking about mental health, everything exists on a continuum and there's, there's all these different continua that I think have real relevance. And in general, we don't want to be on either extreme of these continua. We want to be somewhere in the middle. Not too down, but not too up emotionally either. Not too anxious and also not too chilled out. Dr. Dan Siegel, who is a well-known child and adolescent psychiatrist, great author, a great speaker, he talks about this continuum between emotional chaos and rigidity, emotional rigidity. So those who live in the chaotic end of that spectrum often find that their emotions are just out of control. They have no ability to steady themselves, to rein themselves in, and [00:11:00] it's just all over the map. And that is just plain painful. And it's very easy to see from the outside if another person is in that state.
At its extreme, it just can't be hidden. And I think a lot of us, frankly, find ourselves there at some point in our lives when stress is just off the charts and, it just kind of takes us there. But the other end of that spectrum you don't want to be stuck in either, and that is rigidity.
I don't think this is as obvious to see from the outside, and it might not be quite as overtly painful even for the person who's in it, but I think it is equally harmful if you're stuck there. And it can be really hard to break out of that pattern, partly because we may not recognize that what we're doing is a terribly ineffective attempt to control everything, to [00:12:00] lessen the pain through rigid, tight, rigid control.
And we can do this with our thinking, thinking that we know everything. We can't create the flexibility to open up to that. So it's hard to just say when you're stuck there that, okay, I'm just going to stop this now and expect it to go away. So, that's why in Joy Lab, especially in our Joy Lab program, we do so much to cultivate curiosity, awe, mental and emotional flexibility.
They are just so good and they're such good antidotes to either this chaos or this rigidity.
Aimee: Yeah. I'm thinking of Alan Watts, one of my favorite philosophers. I don't know the exact quote, but he says, "when I'm in the middle, I can respond in any direction." I love that. I, you just can't when you're too far down on a pendulum side, right? You have to scratch your way to the [00:13:00] middle to try to respond.So, these antidotes, yeah. How do we increase, an intellectual humility? Like you said, Henry, we work through the experiments in our Joy Lab program. I think that's a great way. We can also go for an awe walk. We can soak ourselves in play. Which is a great strategy. Be more silly, right?
So I think play can help us shake off some of the armor that we consciously or unconsciously put up to protect ourselves, but that stands in the way of awe. So head outside, join us in the community where the Joy Lab program lives, join in for our podcast episodes that focus on all of this to come out of that rigidity or to come out of that chaos and to build up intellectual humility. So I think a really, simple way to start as well is to get outside of our echo chambers. [00:14:00] For example, if you are in a social media group or listen to some charismatic person that is a hundred percent sure they're on the right side of all the issues and needs to disparage the other side to try to beef up their argument, run. Run out of that group. Run out of that rally. I just watched a great cult documentary last night, which is part of the reason why I didn't sleep well. So I am full up on this one. If anybody knows, if you've listened to the podcast before, I do like my good share of cult documentaries. Henry has encouraged me to back off and I just can't do it. We're not perfect. We can't shake off all of our, our habits. I'm kidding. So, but you know, those echo chambers are like fertilizers for rigidity of thought, and a concrete wall to prevent intellectual humility. And they're really bad for our mental health. There's that. Ask me why I'm not on social media. That is why. I get [00:15:00] sucked into that stuff and it makes me feel like garbage.And then after you, get out of those echo chambers, head outside and pick up some garbage without judging whoever threw it out of their car window. Maybe head to the library and get a book that shines a light on something you know nothing about.Take an awe walk, maybe. I'll put a link in the show notes to that. Flush the rigidity out of your system and get a bit more curious. I promise you will feel better.
Henry: Thanks, Aimee. I think what you're talking about right now is everyday awe, which is what I was trying to get at earlier. I still love an occasional encounter with a vast mystery from time to time.
Aimee: Yeah.
Henry: But right now, for me, it's a really interesting and helpful practice to try to see the mystery or the beauty in everyday things, like your dragonfly.
It's there. I really [00:16:00] believe it's there in everyday things and in the people we encounter every day. So, I see the practice that I'm trying to do as an attempt to clear my own vision. So that I can see beneath the surface of things, and beneath the surface of people, to try to be able to see the beauty and the goodness that I know is there, whether I'm seeing it in that moment or not.
Aimee: I love that. There is goodness in all of us. None of us are right all the time. None of us. But we all have goodness in us. Seeing the awe in other people. There's a podcast episode on that, that we've done. I will find it and I will put it in the show notes. I don't remember what it's titled and I don't know the number, but look there because that's a great practice.
Thank you. So, to close our time today, I'll share some wisdom from Dr. Adam Grant from his book, Think [00:17:00] Again, The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know. Very timely, he wrote, "Questioning ourselves makes the world more unpredictable. It requires us to admit that the facts may have changed, that what once was right, may now be wrong. Reconsidering something we believe deeply can threaten our identities, making it feel as if we're losing a part of ourselves. A hallmark of wisdom is knowing when it's time to abandon some of your most treasured tools. and some of the most cherished parts of your identity."
Thanks for joining us!: Thank you for listening to the Joy Lab podcast. If you enjoy today's show, visit JoyLab.coach to learn more about the full Joy Lab program. Be sure to rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.
Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a [00:18:00] replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program.
Please see our terms for more information.
