Welcome to Joy Lab!: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast, where we help you uncover and foster your most joyful self. Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr. Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of soulful and scientifically sound tools to spark your joy, even when it feels dark. When you're ready to experiment with more joy, combine this podcast with the full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
Henry: Hello, I'm Henry Emmons, and welcome to Joy Lab.
Aimee: And I'm Aimee Prasek. Here at Joy Lab, we infuse science with soul to help you build your resilience and uncover your joy. And today we're opening up some virtual letters, well, just one from our community mailbox to answer. This question is from a community member, really interesting. I'm going to kind of summarize it. But it was around this experience of when our body and our attention goes offline. So to speak, you know, in response to stress, [00:01:00] anxiety, pain, and in those situations, there's this feeling of kind of being disconnected from the world and those around us. So the question is really about how can we bring our system back when we check out like that? And even reduce the chances of going offline in the future as well. So this is a really, actually a really big question. So we're not going to do it service in this episode but so we're going to touch on some kind of surface pieces and then folks, please like in the comments at YouTube or after you give us a five star rating in the podcast platform of your choice, hint hint, put, um, you know, in the review section, let us know if you want to hear more about this, these types of, experiences and we could do a series on that, I think.
So, first as we dive in, I think what's interesting to highlight about this experience is that there is a survival [00:02:00] mechanism at play here. That is interesting to note. It's sometimes called dissociation when this happens, or that would be an example perhaps of this experience- when we cognitively step out of the world around us and go into our own internal space. And amid stress, this can be really protective. Right? The body actually releases chemicals, these endogenous opioids, endorphins, that initiate this kind of sensation, and it's familiar to anyone who's experienced it. It's an experience of feeling disconnected, as I noted, you know, from the world around you, but you know, time distorts. You don't really feel pain as much when this happens. You can imagine then how helpful that could be as a temporary coping mechanism amidst a stressor or trauma that you either don't have other skills to cope with it, with that [00:03:00] situation, or just because the trauma is so severe, right? So your body can be very wise in those cases and you know, thank you, body.
It's, it's saying don't go there and feel what's happening out there. Stay in here, stay in this little endorphin soup I've created for you. It's safer, so, you know, yes, thank you, body. Of course, there are downsides here when this kind of dissociation bleeds into other areas or continues on, for too long and then we have trouble getting out.
So, we'll talk about that, but again, amidst a big stressor that we may not be quite equipped to handle, this can be helpful in moderation. Henry, do you want to say more about maybe the protective aspects of this?
Henry: Yeah, sure. And I, I see it really the same way you just described Aimee. I think it is a, an automatic reflex that [00:04:00] is just kind of built in to protect us when something is otherwise completely overwhelming. I just believe that at any given moment that each one of us is just doing the best we can with whatever resources we've got, you know, inside or outside resources, you know, when we're little kids and we're faced with something super scary, really big, well, we can't face that by ourselves.
Our choices are limited and so doing something like this, this disconnecting, dissociating, might be the very best that we can do. And it's sometimes true for adults, too, you know, it might be really smart to go offline, as, as you had said. Really wise to do that. There's even research on men and women in combat who experience really severe trauma, like you know, in the Iraq war when their [00:05:00] vehicle goes over some explosive device and they just witness their comrades be killed or wounded.
As soon as they got back to their base in this study, they were given a handheld video game, I think it was Tetris, in order to intentionally distract their mind. And basically to disconnect on purpose, for a short period of time. Those who did that had better outcomes than those who didn't, presumably because their minds weren't left to just ruminate and kind of visualize and go over and over what had just happened. So I don't think that that part of this is the problem. I think it's what happens later on for some folks. Where this might become their default mode so that any stress that [00:06:00] comes along big or sometimes small could trigger a similar type of dissociation. And so what started out as a helpful kind of wise body coping strategy might become a trap, almost a prison that can really become hard to break out of.
Aimee: Yeah, I'll share an example of this because I think I've experienced both sides of this of very much appreciating dissociation and also, oh, I'm in the prison of dissociation as well, right? These things can come together. But there, there is a way out, So I remember when my dad died the night he didn't come home, I was 17 and I had zero coping skills. I was not supported in, any coping skills growing up. And I think there's a lot of us that can agree have had that, as our childhood experience as well. [00:07:00] And while he was missing, so he was, he was missing for nine days. And I went about my usual routine, really, for those nine days, in this weird, slow motion state full of these endogenous opioids that were like, carrying me through the hallways of my high school, walking down the halls, oblivious to the rumors and pointing fingers around me, I mean, literally, just I had no idea what was going on around me. I was in my own world, robotically walking through the motions. Thank you, dissociation. Because I couldn't have handled it, quite honestly, I was not equipped. And that did continue for a while for me. Well, too long, as I said, I had zero coping skills for his death and the aftermath, right? So during those nine days, absolutely. Check me out. I was okay with that. The [00:08:00] problem came afterward. You know, I couldn't stay there. We can't stay there. You just can't function meaningfully in that checked out state. It's just not possible. Uh, I, I also, I, I envision a opossum too, you know, like we have these bite freeze states, just as much as fight, just as much as flight. There is a purpose there, but that opossum needs to get up and like get some water and, you know, get some food and hang out with their opossum friends. So how do we get back into the world? How do we get our system back online? And how can we create some new patterns to stop this cycle of returning to that space if it's become a well worn path? Henry, what are your thoughts here?
Henry: Well, it, it, I think a lot depends on how severe, how strong that the trauma was and how long ago it was, so how, how entrenched are the [00:09:00] patterns, you know, big difference between nine days and nine years, let's say, I think it also matters, you know, how, how skillful was a person at the time that it happened and also later on, what kind of skills can they bring into this to help them get out of it. It is, such a high level skill to be able to do this, I, I think it requires like really, really massive skills. So, you know, it's pretty hard to expect a person to do it on their own as an adult, much less as a 17 year old. You know, it's just, that's just too much to expect. I think there are some really good strategies of grounding strategies that people can use in the moment if they're starting to go offline, especially if it doesn't have too strong of a hold on them.
And we'll say more about that. We've got some previous podcasts where we went into [00:10:00] that quite a bit, but when things are really, really difficult, like what you described, Aimee, I think that one really needs a lot of skilled support to be able to develop those abilities to work themselves through that.
And that, you know, that is something, doing something like good trauma-informed therapy. And practicing mindfulness, I think, not only, but maybe along with the good therapy, you know, learning to be more present is a really, really helpful thing to undertake side by side with the therapy. But, but even that, you know, I think it would take a while to, develop enough skill to really be able to work with those, those especially tough patterns that have a firm hold on us
Aimee: I think it's so, important what you noted there that it's such a high level skill to stop the dissociation, to [00:11:00] stop the freeze offline state. And you know, we can focus on these, skills to come back sooner. It's similar to what we were talking about, I think, in, another episode on judging ourselves.
I mean, I know it's kind of a light, maybe, topic compared to thinking about dissociation, but this idea of trying to stop the judgment, trying to stop this physiological response. That's not really the point necessarily, right? I would say it's more about this idea of how can we develop the coping skills to deal with what's happening and to be equipped for the next time it comes so that perhaps we don't go into that offline freeze state as often and when we do, and I've been here, whoops, I'm checking out, I am offline. To have that awareness to come back. So you soften the judgment, I think, on that initial response. Does that resonate, Henry?
Henry: Yeah, and I think you [00:12:00] know something in what you said too is that this is something that you can choose to do on purpose. You know, it's very different, I think, if this is done intentionally, just knowing that this is what I need to do right now, uh, versus having it happen just automatically outside of your control where you, you, you also then have a very hard time intentionally bringing yourself back.
So, you know, I think we both have said that applying mindfulness skills to this is a tall order, but at the same time, it, I think it's possible to view it in pretty simple terms, you know, to, to be able to see that how we could use mindfulness skill in its purest form, which is absolutely right on for what is called [00:13:00] for in this kind of a instance.
I think in essence, this practice means that we bring ourselves back repeatedly to the here and now, just over and over and over again. We bring ourselves back, we go away, we bring ourselves back, we go away, we bring ourselves back. So if it's your body that you're leaving, you know, you can feel it, you're kind of getting disconnected from your body, you practice bringing yourself back to your body. You find something physical like your breath or maybe a body scan or walking, a walking meditation that can bring you right back into your body. if you're leaving your sense of time or space, you practice bringing yourself back to this moment and an awareness and experience, moment to moment experience, which is absolutely an antidote to that sense of pulling you, you [00:14:00] off.
So it's this, this way of kind of repeatedly finding what, what is the best way to ground myself in the moment, based on what's happening.
Aimee: I love that. I think, what I'm feeling too is that maybe we can relieve some of the sting of this idea of dissociation and the judgment that comes along with it. Those are some great grounding, mindfulness strategies to employ pretty quickly, in the moment. Henry, you also said finding some trauma informed support, so maybe a support group, that's relevant too as, as you, find your way back online to find a group of folks who have experienced maybe what you've experienced to validate that the experience is real, that other folks have struggled with it. I think it's easy to believe that we're the only ones who have felt like this, whatever this is, who have experienced this, who have struggled with this. And in 99. 9 percent of situations, it's just not true. The human experience is [00:15:00] dynamic, and complex, and it is surprisingly universal at the same time.
I'll quote Henry Nouwan who said, "Maybe the most personal struggles we have are actually the most universal." So, I think also we've talked about, skill building and Joy Lab... our Joy Lab program is very much about that, cultivating those coping skills.
We have a resilience, training as well. So there's lots of resources that we have here. Is there anything else you want to share, Henry?
Henry: No, just that, you know, I, I think, I think it's good to kind of point people towards the Joy Lab program because it just gives us so many different avenues into doing this kind of practice with a focus on, on building a positive trait, but it's still giving you the skills to deal with this kind of, more difficult, pattern that we get caught up in.
Aimee: Yeah. Creating new patterns. Practice makes pattern, as we say around here. So we can [00:16:00] create new patterns. I'll close our time today with some wisdom from author and activist and expert in post trauma work, Dr. Clarissa Pinkola Estes. I think it's a beautiful description of the wisdom of our body even if we sense it's going offline, that it still has something to tell us and we can listen. Here's what they wrote. "The body is a multilingual being. It speaks through its color and its temperature, the flesh of recognition, the glow of love, the ash of pain, the heat of arousal, the coldness of non conviction. It speaks through the leaping of the heart, the falling of the spirits, the pit at the center, and rising hope."
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