Welcome to Joy Lab!: Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast, where we help you uncover and foster your most joyful self. Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr. Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of soulful and scientifically sound tools to spark your joy, even when it feels dark. When you're ready to experiment with more joy, combine this podcast with the full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
Aimee: Hello, I'm Aimee Prasek and welcome to Joy Lab. Here at Joy Lab we infuse science with soul to help you uncover joy. To do that we focus on building the elements of joy. Those are the positive emotions and inner states that become the building blocks for joyful life. So the element that we're digging into in the next several episodes is fun.
Uh, Henry is out having fun on Lake Winnipesaukee, as I told you last episode, he'll be back in a few. Fun really doesn't get the attention it deserves when it comes to mental health. We're trying to change that here at Joy Lab. It's a huge oversight because fun is a really powerful concept.
When it comes to good mental health, we really are wired to be playful in daily life. And when we're dealing with something like depression, infusing more fun, or more play into our daily life, can be a really potent support to help us feel better.
And I get it, it's sort of the last thing you wanna do when you're feeling depressed, but making whatever effort you can muster up to tap into your playful spirit is like medicine. Uh, and it does get easier with practice. Yes, we can practice fun. It will get easier to, uh, summon your playful nature with practice.
So we wanted to actually unearth an old episode, like one of our very early ones, episode five, because it really sets us up for some of the other topics that we'll get into in the next chunk of episodes. So after this intro, then I'm gonna cue up episode five Uh, and there's an invitation there to just like really listen in to channel your most playful self.
And then next episode, uh, you'll find a play meditation all set for you so that you can apply what we talk about here, uh, in this episode and take some action.
One more thing, I just wanted to send a big thank you, uh, to all the fun-loving humans who have joined us over at the resilient community. It's not just a place for extra tools and support to practice these strategies, which is great, um, that uncover our joy and strengthen our resilience, but when you join, you become a key part of keeping this podcast free and accessible and alive. Truly. Your involvement, that small monthly support, literally keeps this podcast going and we're so grateful. So if you haven't joined yet, we'd love, you to join us. Honestly, we do need some more support to keep it going.
It's like the NPR fall membership drive I feel like right now, I wish we could offer some free totes or mug, but uh, there are some really special additions coming to the community that I'm excited about, so it's a great time to join. And I hope you do join us.
So thank you again everyone, all of you listening in or watching. We feel really lucky to be connected to you all and are excited for lots more Joy Lab episodes in the future. So for now, enjoy this replay all about fun.
So the theme of this episode is fun. Pleasure, play flow, the good stuff in life, the things we all want, but that many of us don't get enough of.
Henry: I'm one of those people, Aimee, at least I was for much of my life. I'll say a little more about that later, but first I have to note that fun might seem like kind of a lightweight topic compared to some of our other themes like hope or awe.
Aimee: Yeah, it, it might seem lightweight, but I'm hoping we can convince everyone otherwise. And at Joy Lab, we, we take fun like super seriously. Seriously. It is an essential element of joy. Just like our other elements.
Henry: That's right. It is both a manifestation of joy and it's something that might create joy.
So when we feel joyful, Everything seems fun when we don't feel joyful doing some kind of fun thing might actually get us there.
Aimee: Yeah, it's that virtuous cycle or the upward spiral that we talk about so much here at Joy Lab and practicing fun is like pretty much the most direct way to get a positive spiral going.
Henry: So we don't think we need to teach you how to have fun. You already know how to do that. It's just as natural as breathing. I would go so far as to say that whatever you're doing, whatever you're doing, can be fun so long as your thinking doesn't get in the way. However, if you're like me and a lot of other people I know that's the rub.
Our own thinking or perceptions get in the way. I'll admit it, I am no expert at having fun, but I am kind of an expert at getting in my own way. And I am learning how to get outta my own way, but I think we might have a resident expert on fun right here in Joy Lab. Aimee, am I reading too much into this or do you already know the secret for how to enjoy life?
Aimee: Well, I, I do hope I spread fun. I am, uh, I'm pretty much a silly person. I think I've been asked, or instructed, a few times to be more serious. But I think, um, one of my secrets has been to really show up in life, whether professionally or personally, pretty much the same. And I know that can be sort of a privileged option.
And at the same time, it has also cost me some professional roles, like not enough employers understand the value of fun and letting folks show up as they are. But on that note, even though I seem like a fun loving human most days, it isn't always easy to maintain that piece of me. So sort of as we just noted, it actually takes practice and there are barriers. And particularly it seems like there's so much pressure, you know, to be busy, to be hustling, to be productive, to put on these masks for all our different audiences.
This idea that having fun is like either irresponsible or it's sort of only acceptable in the extreme, like this work hard, play hard mentality.
Henry: Wow. I, I only got the first half of that message- work hard. Uh, of course I was a kid once and like all kids, I imagine I, I played a lot. I don't really know when that changed or how it changed, but I am pretty sure by the time I was 15 or 16, I felt and acted a lot like a 50 year old man. I was just so responsible. Yeah, I, I was able to enjoy things, but overall I was pretty serious and pretty driven. I just got so focused on academic success that I learned to set fun aside or as they say, to delay gratification.
Now on the positive side, being able to delay gratification did help me survive my medical training, but it's also a great way to turn into a workaholic.
Aimee: Yeah, I think your story is similar to so many of us. And it really speaks to me and I think why I take fun so seriously. And it's really because, I witnessed my dad's sort of work fun imbalance for many years growing up.
Maybe other person, other folks have had this experience. Uh, my dad worked so hard all the time and he hated, hated his job. And so without offering any time to fill his tank, so to speak, fun and joy really began to dry up in his life. And laughter became much more uncommon. But he worked right, more and more hours, sort of convinced that more money would come, which would, as the American story of success claims, would like solve all his problems. And the idea that possessions are sort of the medicine, uh, to fill that emptiness with him.
But it didn't work. And he died actually at 52. And all this overworking, um, his constant hustle to accumulate more really left him sort of evaporated in a way, and a lot of, of who he was because so much was focused on the external, was sort of quickly swept away when he died. And now I'm, I'm sort of sharing just a snapshot, of course, of a wonderful human.
My dad was a super fascinating guy, but I think it's also evidence that, and we all know this, you just cannot function well without good fuel. Nobody can. We all need good food, clean water, movement, fresh air, sunshine, moonlight, and fun, and all the other elements that we work on in Joy Lab, you need those too.
But seriously, you need to have fun to fuel your inner life.
Henry: Well, I can tell you, getting out of that workaholic pattern is hard. It's really hard, but it's not the only obstacle to fun. There's a ton of 'em. According to cognitive behavioral therapy, the primary enemy of fun is one word: "should." As in, I should do that.
I "should" be this. Now, there are some things in life that probably we should do, so we're not suggesting a life with no responsibility, but once again, there is a middle way with just the right amount of duty and responsibility that can live right alongside fun and pleasure. So whatever is blocking you from fully enjoying your life, if you've been doing it for years, it might take a while to open yourself up again.
That was certainly true for me, but to a large degree, I have done just that.
Aimee: Yeah, I think you're a, a good model for the middle way. Uh, certainly for me, Henry. But you're right, it's so hard. Those shoulds are super sneaky. They're convincing, right? And in excess, sort of as you noted, they, they take us out of, uh, a word I like flow.
And I think maybe that's another one of my fun secrets. That idea of flow being the state of fun. So this idea of, of flow, maybe folks who are like, I, I shouldn't be doing that. I'm too old for fun or I don't have time for fun. They might sort of dig this idea of flow. So fun really puts us in the state of flow and that state of flow is so healing and joy-giving. And it's productive too.
So there's a psychologist, uh, Mihaly Csik- let me try to say his name correctly. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, uh, he, anyway, he's done a lot of work on this concept of flow. He literally wrote the book on flow. Well he describes flow as feeling fully alive. It's like when we're totally involved with what we're doing and feeling in harmony with what's around us.
It's sort of when your actions and your awareness, uh, merge and you're not worried about failure because you feel equipped and sort of up for the challenge. And your self-consciousness sort of disappears and you feel more connected. Those are all amazing things and in that state, right, that state of flow, that is the reward that state.
It's not focused on any other external award. It's really your presence in that moment. Um, and it's nourishing. And you might even be exhausted when you're done with that activity that you've sort of given your full attention to, but you feel full. And so, um, the psychologist, Csikszentmihalyi, also notes that it's easiest to really access flow with fun activities and things like singing, doing sports, exercising, sort of working on a project or a hobby that you really love, talking with others, reading a good book.
So there are really like tons of ways to, to have fun and to be in flow. But of course nonetheless, Henry, like you said, there are more obstacles than just sort of overworking. And some really are, or feel outside of our control. But really, if you're not having fun, if you're not feeling in flow at times and able to enjoy your life, then something's not right.
It's sort of likely that maybe you're holding on to something that needs to be let go. And I think we all deserve, I know this, we all need to have fun to be in flow. And so it's important no matter the obstacles or or systems in your way, and there are many, it's necessary to create some space for your fuel to come in.
So if you feel stuck because you have a blockage, right, and you're sort of reinforcing that blockage again and again, then how do you get out of it? Henry, I think you've probably got an answer for this.
Henry: You, you want me to answer this, huh? Okay. Yeah. How? Here's a story that. I love that. I think gives us a sort of roadmap for how to get out of stuck places.
It's called an autobiography in five short chapters and it was written by a woman named Portia Nelson. So I'm gonna read it 'cause it's not very long.
Chapter one, I walk down the street, there is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I fall in, I am lost. I am helpless. It isn't my fault. It takes forever to find a way out.
Chapter two, I walk down the same street. There is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I pretend I don't see it. I fall in again. I can't believe I am in the same place, but it isn't my fault. It still takes a long time to get out.
Chapter three, I walk down the same street. There is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I see it is there.
I still fall in. It's a habit. My eyes are open. I know where I am. It is my fault. I get out immediately.
Chapter four. I walk down the same street. There is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I walk around it.
And chapter five, I walk down another street.
Aimee: I love that story. Um, it's funny because it's true. I like that it doesn't take life too seriously. It sort of pokes fun at the messes we find ourselves in. And I think most people can recognize themselves in it. I do. And I bet most of our listeners, can see themselves right at one time or another, stuck in one of those five chapters.
Henry: Yeah, I was stuck in chapters one and two for a long time. And I actually think that's pretty typical. You know, we can spend a long time in those earlier stages until we start to see our role in it and take more ownership of our lives. I used to blame my medical training for turning me into a workaholic. But the truth is, The seeds for that were there, at least by my adolescence.
Nobody else did that to me. I did it. Unknowingly, innocently, but still I did it to myself. And I don't think I could have gotten to that understanding without adding more awareness to my life. When I finally started to be a witness to my own life, I could see that maybe I didn't need to step into that same hole again.
Aimee: Right. That's another, uh, great reason to engage in some kind of mindfulness practice like we do in the Joy Lab program. Uh, it can give us the tools to see what's really going on so we have at least a fighting chance, uh, to make a wiser choice and move onto the next stage. Otherwise, we sort of keep stepping in the same hole again and again, and never realizing why life feels so hard.
Or able to see what's blocking our access to fun.
Henry: Oh, absolutely. You know, I think there also are some good lessons from the world of research that can help bring more fun back into our lives. So I remember for example, years ago reading about a study where they took a group of old folks to some kind of retreat center just to separate themselves from their lives as usual, and then to see what happened when they started acting young again.
Now Aimee, I think you, since you, you geek out on this stuff, I think you have more details to share on this study, and I'm afraid one of them is gonna be that the participants actually weren't really that old. They were my age when they did that. Is that, is that right?
Aimee: Nope. Uh, they were all older than you, but came out of this study feeling younger.
So, um, maybe there's a secret here we can all discover to feel our, youngest self. So, um, as an aside, you know, like you said, I geek out on this stuff. When I feel in flow, something I do for fun to bring me to that state of flow. I read research. So right. There are a zillion ways to have fun. Don't let anybody tell you your way isn't good.
Anyway, so yeah, this is such an inspiring study. It's research, uh, it's researcher Ellen Langer's work, and she called it the Counterclockwise Study. This was done back in 1981. So she took a, a small group, just eight guys, all in their seventies and created like a five day time warp where everything, and I mean everything surrounding them sort of made them feel like it was the year 1959 and they were 20 years younger. So there were papers and magazines laying around that had the 1959 date on them. There was sort of, you know, all the decor. There was music and radio was playing, but it was sort of productions pulled from 1959 music from that time period.
And they even had pictures of themselves visible, but the pictures were of themselves 20 years ago, of these participants. So now, before these guys step back into this 1959 capsule, they were assessed on some measures. It was dexterity, grip strength, flexibility, hearing and vision, memory, cognition, sort of all the usual getting older tests.
Then they were told to not only reminisce about that time period when they were 20 years younger, but to actually try to be that person they were 20 years ago. You know, act like they did then think like they did then. Even talk in the present tense about the past events that they were seeing in this little capsule.
Right? So the movies, the sports news, the artifacts in the room, sort of talking about those things as if they were happening right then.
Henry: Wow, that is so cool. Um, but I noticed that all of the activities these folks did were basically fun. You know, there was recreational, it was connection. I don't think any of it had much to do with work, is that right?
Aimee: Yeah. They, they were having fun. They weren't just laying around though. Right. So fun is sort of this active process that engages so many of our senses, oftentimes. And, and with the study, the staff even treated the participants like they were 20 years younger as well. So everything coming in, to their system was telling them it was 20 years prior.
They didn't, the staff didn't even help these men when they had to go up a flight of stairs to bring their luggage in, they just said, you know, take it up in shifts. So these arthritic, guys with arthritis in their knees, were taking their shirts up one by one.
So there was also a control group. Uh, they came for five days as well and stayed, but were just told to reminisce about the past. That's all they did.
All right, so I wanna, I wanna share what happened here. The 1959 group, it did better. Like way better. Their flexibility and dexterity improved. They sat taller, independent judges said they looked younger, and get this, their eyesight improved. Powerful.
And now here's a, here's another bit. I love that I like to share the 1959 group that at first was like, how am I going to get my luggage up these stairs because of my aching knees? Right. They ended their time in the study with an impromptu touch football game. This was not planned by the researchers. These eight guys just started a football game before they left.
So this study was replicated with another small group in, in 2010, and the results were the same. And so I know you could say, well, this is just a small group and there's so many variables, but it kind of doesn't matter. These folks, whatever their motivation, whatever the most impactful cause, they let go of their shoulds.
And they had fun. They had fun together, and their brains, bodies, and their moods changed in just five days.
Henry: Yeah, I, I think it's a great lesson in perception. That what we experience as joyful or fun has a lot to do with how we see things. You know, even concrete measures of aging seem to be affected by how we think about ourselves.
So, uh, here's another study that I really love. It's actually a series of studies. But you know, these were done not with humans, but with lab animals, which essentially means lab rats. So they were looking at several important factors in neurogenesis. And that refers to the creation of new brain cells.
So this is the ability that we all have that stays with us throughout our lives to replace neurons that are lost due to aging, injury, or just normal metabolism. So this happens in all parts of the body. Some cells die and then they're replaced with new ones. But obviously when it comes to brain cells, we want these new ones to be healthy and to survive, and for that to happen, they have to connect robustly with a lot of other brain cells.
Aimee: I love that. Just pointing out here, that just like neurons, humans we're wired for connection, right? We need connections to thrive.
Henry: Oh, I agree. So the factors for growth of new neurons that they were looking at were these: exercise, diet, an enriched environment, social connection, and serotonin levels.
Now age is also important because it is true that as we age, we do not make as many of these new brain cells. But stay tuned because that is not the end of the story. So briefly, each of these factors supports a brain chemical known as BDNF which I think of as miracle grow for these neurons.
Aimee: Okay.
Hold on though. We're not Lab rats though, right? Henry. I just wanna say like humans are a bit different here.
Henry: Well, yes and no. There is, there's one big difference between humans and lab rats, and that is if you put a treadmill type thing in a rat's cage, They will actually use it. Human beings, we know it's not that easy.
Um, and actually with, with all of these factors, it's easier to control the variables for, you know, in a laboratory situation than it is for us. But, but still, there's some really great lessons for this.
So when it comes to an enriched environment, for example, all you need to do is give them something challenging to do, like a maze, give them toys to play with and give them playmates to play with. Which I think is actually very similar to how you would create an enriched environment for humans. One researcher wondered which of all these factors is the most important for neurogenesis? And again, they are exercise, diet, an enriched environment, serotonin, social connection, and age.
So what they did is they divided them into old and young groups and they tested them against all these o other variables. And which of them do you think had the most remarkable growth of new neurons?
Aimee: I'm gonna guess it was the old rats that played touch football with the other old rats.
Yeah,
Henry: exactly! Now remember Aimee, you are also aging, so you should keep playing and hanging out with old people like me, and I think you'll be all right.
Aimee: Yeah, it's true. And I'm so grateful to you Henry and for Joy Lab, right, we work really hard, but a lot of the time. It doesn't feel like work. It feels like fun. That's sort of the holy grail of work, sort of melding meaning and purpose with play and fun.
Henry: Ooh, I like that. Melding meaning and purpose with play and fun.
So, you know, you shared Aimee in an earlier podcast that you've had about 50 jobs already, so it makes me think that it's important for you as it is for me and a lot of people, that you get more from work than just the usual stuff. So going back to that autobiography in five short chapters, I think one of the key lessons, and you said this earlier, Aimee, about, about you as well, one of the keys is authenticity. It's one of my favorite topics. We'll, maybe we'll take that on in the future. So in each of my sort of fumbling attempts to stop stepping into my favorite holes, I've become more comfortable just bringing my real self to all parts of my life, including work.
The more we become ourselves, the more we feel good in our own skin, the more we can open ourselves up to fun. When we have that inner freedom, then fun, just like joy arises. Just spontaneously.
Aimee: Mm. I think it was Thomas Merton maybe who wrote, "Finally, I am coming to the conclusion that my highest ambition is to be what I already am."
I love that authenticity. Right? So at our core, we are all fun beings. As we've talked about here, we're all wired for and need to play. So to sort of tie this up, I'm gonna close, I think, by quoting Sigmund Freud. Who is like a far cry from our usual Mary Oliver or Rumi quotes. Um, so I'll paraphrase 'em actually.
Uh, Freud said that happiness requires two things to love and to work. But I, you know, at Joy Lab, I think we'd say something is missing. So here's, here's our Joy Lab version to be happy, you need to love to work and to play. So we hope you'll join us in the full Joy Lab program where we have fun as we work on our inner lives.
We work on letting go of those shoulds so that we can be free enough to someday walk down another street.
Thanks for joining us!: Thank you for listening to the Joy Lab podcast. If you enjoy today's show, visit JoyLab.coach to learn more about the full Joy Lab program. Be sure to rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.
